Curse

hazardouswaste · Jun 08, 2006, 07:30 PM // 19:30

I wrote up an article on my msn space about GuildWars. It's a topic I'm sure had been covered in these forums already, but I would appreciate that you at least give it a read, even if you wish not to comment.

http://spaces.msn.com/hazardouswaste/

Haggard · Jun 08, 2006, 07:37 PM // 19:37

You speak the truth, but the problem is that many assasins think that they are tanks, and simply don't know how to play.

Wyrmdog · Jun 08, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Class and Profession bias always seems to exist no matter the game. It's a safe way for people to express their bigotry.

In every game, damage classes are a dime a dozen - as the saying goes - because supply far outstrips demand. They are simple classes to play more often than not (despite everyone* - even you - thinking that their pet class is the most difficult, complex, and intricate to play), yet as their players know, they can be very intricate and rewarding as well. It's easy to operate on two completely separate planes when learning to play a fragile face-hitter.

In WoW, Hunters and Rogues have issues eerily similar to the ones I hear Assassins express. "Full on Rogues and Hunters," is a common refrain in the LFG channel. Paladins have the same sort of popularity as W/Mo and very similar stigma: they are n00bs, they only heal themselves and die with full mana bars, only 12-year olds play them, we hates them...that sort of thing.

Healers in every game are blamed for wipes, yelled at to heal (because healing spells are free, instant cast, and they are all babysitting *you*, don'tcha know), and undervalued not only by other players who resent that they need them, but also by the game mechanics themselves as often as not.

Damage = glory. Healing = thankless.

Here in Guild Wars, Rangers are damage too, and are less often needed or wanted than Warriors who can tank more easily or Necromancers who are more self-sufficient and have more pets, and so on and so forth. Elementalists are having harder times getting some missions due to the AoE changes. People think Ritualists are just pseudo-Monks with a dash of Necromancer and Ranger.

Nobody knows what Mesmers do**.

I can't express how often I'm on a team that is at LEAST half Warriors.

This is not at all to say that your issue is unfounded. It's very real. Like other classes, Assassins currently suffer from the issue of being misunderstood, most often by their own players. This leads to encounters that sour people to the point of painting in very broad strokes, much to the detriment of the entire community.

All classes are more complex than those who don't play them want to believe. All classes bring value to a team. No class should be devalued based on a bad experience with a player (note the distinction from character or class), yet they often are.

The way Assassins fight is counterintuitive to most of the other class players. The fact that it is most effective to move in and out of the fight will cause some to wonder if you're contributing while if you stand and fight, they watch you die and think you suck. I realize it's a losing proposition all around taken in that light. All you can do is educate and exercise patience.

Just know that Assassins are not alone in the community-wide derision and under-valuation. Know that as things progress, they will become more valued and appreciated, and that you have the opportunity to be at the forefront of making that happen.

Small consolation, but it's all I've got. =P

* Remember kids, this is hyperbolic.
** I kid, I kid! Sorta.

Eviance · Jun 08, 2006, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggard

You speak the truth, but the problem is that many assasins think that they are tanks, and simply don't know how to play.

Yeah... I have a guildie that thinks he can tank on his Sin... OMG! I don't know how many times I have had to rush in for a rebirth on his butt lol.

The one thing I have to say about Sins... They should NEVER EVER go without an excellent self heal if they plan on any form of tanking!

I "can" tank with my sin but only if I have a self heal.... But I am more interested in causing conditions and knockdowns than anything else.

Zakarr · Jun 08, 2006, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Assassins are cursed:

When you tank = you are a n00b
When you hit and run = you are a weak coward

Some warriors think assassins are alternative warriors which they want to beat and prove them to be weak. If you don't take 1 vs 1 with warrior, you are a coward but if you accept it and most likely die, you are a loser or n00b. You are not allowed to tank and if you don't, some bash you anyway.

So what assassins should do then? Anyone care to explain?

Yes, I'm mostly talking about random arena. No one should go there but there is tons of those scums which rot GW community with their behaviour. What is the reason for all this?

hazardouswaste · Jun 08, 2006, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Wyrmdog, I love the level of detail you put in your posts. Informative and enlightening. I did know about how hard other professions have it in GW, which is why I used the term lately.

Though now that I think about it, I probably should have used something more along the lines of "the latest uprising.."

Going on personal history, my first character was a N/R.. Not exactly the sweetest combo at the time, but I wanted both to control death and have a pet (lol.. childish to think about nowadays)

Now keep in mind I sought out no websites for build ideas, instead going for the 'I make my character my own' route. By the time I got to Perdition rock and the Ring of Fire mission, Necromancers were, to put it lightly, scoffed on. In seeing this, I changed my secondary to Ele and used nothing but artillery-based fire spells, bumping my soul reap to as high as I could.

Once people started seeing 'Soul sucking artillery LFG', people became intrigued and I got a lot more invites.

Maybe I should think about looking for a unique angle to the Assassin, instead of being a plain A/Mo.

proffbeer · Jun 08, 2006, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Yall ever hear the term "think outside the box" well, in general, a majorty of the people that are in mission districts can't do this. I decided on this while im sitting in Sunjiang District waiting on a group. I've seen countless lines roling past, LF MM/SS, which is amusing considering. I rember back in the day when necros had better luck getting forced feed down a rancors throat, then getting in a group. Simply because people didn't know what they were cable of, they didn't tank, they didn't nuke like a fire ele, that is of course before the aoe nerf. People didn't know, so the necros had to suffer, now no one wants to go anywhere without one.

People have got it in their heads that only this group build works, and it cant change, nothing else will work so it has to be this way, and if you dont meet this criteria then the heck with you, you are worthless, you can't do anything.

Course, I have one cosolation, these are the people that if i see in a pvp setting, i ain't got nothing to worry about, simply because they can't think outside the box. easy kills, for easy faction, yay

Wyrmdog · Jun 08, 2006, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazardouswaste

Wyrmdog, I love the level of detail you put in your posts. Informative and enlightening.

A legible post with thought behind it deserves no less, and thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazardouswaste

Once people started seeing 'Soul sucking artillery LFG', people became intrigued and I got a lot more invites.

Maybe I should think about looking for a unique angle to the Assassin, instead of being a plain A/Mo.

Honestly, I think that could be crucial to changing minds. Selling a role is probably more viable than changing ideas about the class in a vaccuum. Soul-Sucking Artillery indeed.

Perhaps selling the profession's strength as a way to play bodyguard for the Monk or Ritualist and a tactical destroyer of healer mobs could help...dunno. What I do know is that with the proper mindset, virtually any group of characters with virtually any class combination used intelligently can be functional. If I hadn't inadvertently wiped my Frost Gate group last night in a moment of absent-mindedness the run we made with two W/Mo's healing would have been a fantastic tribute to this idea.

But...take out my abject stupidity and those two W/Mo's were able to show that they were more than just super-durable fighters, they could be healers, too. Granted they needed help with everyone carrying rez sigs just in case and equipping and statting a self-heal, but the point is that they did what most people insist they can't: they main healed.

In similar fashion, I'm betting you (and other creative players of Assassins) can show that the Assassin is more than appearances and popular conception makes them out to be.

zamial · Jun 09, 2006, 05:42 AM // 05:42

ok what i have done with assassin is really simple and full of glory.i made mine a/ele. a teleporting ground aoe nuker.shadow step in and boom boom boom and if yer lucky shadow out, if not ya make a great flesh golem...fact is i can deal almost 400 points of fire in less than 2 seconds. does it kill all the enemys? no but it sure makes them squishy.........lol.and if ya REALLY want a bang work with your minnion master, hey death nova is the ultimate in glory...
at least in this build and unyeilding aura is the perfect rez.
btw your survival is improved if ya let a wammo agro 1st.

(fyi this build is called "having a blast" after a green day song,since "suicide bomber" offends people and makes ya look noobish.)

Maria The Princess · Jun 09, 2006, 06:10 AM // 06:10

assassing are kind of finding their place as a Barrage kritical eye, thanks to rangers who showed every other class that they dont need 3 wariors and can whipe out evry hard area in the game on a ranger based team....

im sure assassins will follow the same path

Juicey Shake · Jun 09, 2006, 06:58 AM // 06:58

assassins are fine working only in their class just as of yet 7/8 of the people who play them do it poorly, be it poor builds, positioning, or armor choices.

Slainster · Jun 09, 2006, 07:50 AM // 07:50

nice article.. seems discrimination rules everywhere unnecessarily

bele · Jun 09, 2006, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zakarr

Assassins are cursed:

When you tank = you are a n00b
When you hit and run = you are a weak coward

Some warriors think assassins are alternative warriors which they want to beat and prove them to be weak. If you don't take 1 vs 1 with warrior, you are a coward but if you accept it and most likely die, you are a loser or n00b. You are not allowed to tank and if you don't, some bash you anyway.

So what assassins should do then? Anyone care to explain?

Yes, I'm mostly talking about random arena. No one should go there but there is tons of those scums which rot GW community with their behaviour. What is the reason for all this?

I usually when monk Tank-Assasins i spend half of my energy healing-protecting them. It's a nightmare. Bad business

When you hit and run = you are a good assasin.

No matter what they tell you in local or in teamchat

Actually assasins are intended to play that way. Not even to try to tank, and even less to try to kill Warrios 1-1 .

Go for the squishes. there is always several in the opposite team,and if there are 4 Wa, then your'e having a bad time.

RTSFirebat · Jun 09, 2006, 08:21 AM // 08:21

That article was a good read, after I copy and pasted it in a MS word to make it easier to read

Assassins are a great class, in 12v12 alliance battles I seen some which don't know what they are doing, and I've seen some real kick ass ones as well, which took my helath down in seconds.

Generally Assassins suffer from what most players in the game do, they often don't know when to retreat from a losing fight. Many try to tank, which doesn't work for an Assassin, it really doesn't.

I want to build up my own Assassin, but most Pick-up groups won't even give them a chance.

Then again similar to the Mesmer, I think Assassins are better suited to PvP battles then anything PvE provides.

Thom · Jun 09, 2006, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Wyrmdog. you complain about bigotry then explain why each stereotype is justified. Two facts:
1)Damage characters tend to draw kids and casual players with only a vague understanding of game mechanics.

2)Assassins are an "advanced class" much like mesmers or ritualists who require an attentive playing style to be as effective as other classes. I can create a straight forward healer, ranger or warrior that nearly everyone can play efficiently in normal groups, assassins require a bit more attention and have less margin of error.

It really isn't all that suprising that people don't want assassins on their team. You really don't want many assassins because they don't hold aggro, which is fine if you have one or two but is a disaster if there are more. A good warrior will go in get aggro and hold it while killing as effectively as an assassin over time. Now if you want to take out a single target in the enemy backline, an assassin will do that better than a warrior.

This isn't about bigotry, it is about people efficiently playing the game. My pugs really wants 2 healers, 2 warriors, a minion master and an interrupter leaving the over abundance of assassins 2 slots to fight over. Given a choice I'd pick against assassins since they aren't likely to be as experienced as a warrior or elem in tyria gear.

darrylhaines · Jun 09, 2006, 08:48 AM // 08:48

I think I have come up with a very good improvement for the assasin, Speed up the recharge on there skills. I've finally got my assasin to Harvest temple(thank god!) and I have found that after my first attack chain, I'm waiting around 10-12 seconds before I can attack again due to the long recharge times for the assasin attack skills. Take more attack skills I hear you say, then where am I going to put all my healing and energy recovery skills lol.

I take:
1 lead, 1 off hand and 1 dual attack, 1 res,1 heal,
Assasin's promise (For 5 seconds, if target foe dies, you gain 5 energy and all your skills are recharged).
Way of the lotus (For 23 seconds, the next time you hit target foe with a dual attack skill, you gain 10 Energy).
And a skill cap (lol, Only got 2 elites).

Assasin's promise is a godsend as it recharges all your skills straight away, only thing is that ou have to cast right before he dies as the target needs to die within a couple of seconds of it being cast.

The one thing I can see why people don't like to pick assasin's is the attack then run away, then run back in and out. With all the other classe's you can either tank it out or attack from range for as long as you want (until you see an enermy warrior run at you lol).

The assasin is there for surgical strikes. I suppose some people will feal that there not pulling there weight because there not attacking 24/7 during a fight, where all the other classes can (due to long range attacks i.e. staff's/bows) so they would rather take anyone else other than an assasin.

I can see there point of view, why take a risk when there are tried and tested builds out there that your familar with. That is why I think Anet made such a big mistake with the very fast leveling in factions, it didn't allow people to work there way through playing an assasin, they just throw you into the deep end as it where.

Well, that's my 2 pence as it were, I'll be glad when my assasin completes the game then I'll have oh so lot's of fun over in tyria with him, where I think she will fare a lot better than in faction's Canthra.

(This is only my opinion, so please no flaming if you don't agree 100%, you could add other suggestions though?)

torquemada · Jun 09, 2006, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Ah not really unnecessarily, because most people don't know how to play Sin. Unfortunately this ruins the experience for the minority of decent players out there.

Wyrmdog · Jun 09, 2006, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

Wyrmdog. you complain about bigotry then explain why each stereotype is justified.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I was simply pointing out that yes, several classes suffer from bigotry and mistreatment based on stereotyping, bad anecdotal experiences, and misunderstanding. The point was to show that while people can justify this line of thought to themselves, it is ultimately an untenable position to maintain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

Two facts:
1)Damage characters tend to draw kids and casual players with only a vague understanding of game mechanics.

2)Assassins are an "advanced class" much like mesmers or ritualists who require an attentive playing style to be as effective as other classes. I can create a straight forward healer, ranger or warrior that nearly everyone can play efficiently in normal groups, assassins require a bit more attention and have less margin of error.

Are these really facts or are they assumptions? I assert they are assumptions (and yes, I made assumptions in my post, but I think I made it clear that's what they were - if not, please accept my apologies). They are not necessarily incorrect, but I wouldn't pass them off as fact without reference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

This isn't about bigotry, it is about people efficiently playing the game. My pugs really wants 2 healers, 2 warriors, a minion master and an interrupter leaving the over abundance of assassins 2 slots to fight over. Given a choice I'd pick against assassins since they aren't likely to be as experienced as a warrior or elem in tyria gear.

Well, this is where you and I will agree to disagree. While the setup you mention is safe, easy, and tested, it isn't always the most efficient. Efficiency is mutable dependent upon the setup of the mission or quest in question and should vary by excursion on that basis. Just as you vary your build from outing to outing, efficiency demands a varied team suited to the goal.

In my opinion, this is about people inventing or exaggerating issues in order to justify their intractable ideas concerning team makeup, player skill, and the value of one class over another. This is about people being made to endure the online approximation of discriminatory beliefs concerning groups of people. I make no claims that it is as destructive or divisive as real-world bigotry because we all know it isn't, but it IS a similar mindset.

I mean, if I only had a nickel for every post where someone has said something like, "Well, you must be one of the good Wammos," or "I'm not a typical Wammo." Change a few words around...how does it sound now?

Perhaps it'd be easier to swallow for some if I phrased it in a somewhat different context:

Take a grade-school playground and assume a group of children are selecting for a team to play a game. The specifics are unimportant as this is an analogy, so don't get caught up in that. What's important is what we ALL saw growing up. There is inevitably one kid - or one group of kids - that are picked last, possibly not at all. The reasons are artificial and often ridiculous.

That kid wears glasses so she couldn't be good at sports; that kid is fat so he'll be a good blocker; let's pick that one because I want to be friends...see, even those first two decisions can be flimsily justified by efficiency, yet anyone who thinks about it can see the holes in the logic behind the choice.

Assumptions can be valuable and even accurate, but there is an inherent danger in applying them too liberally.

As always, this is my opinion, and please don't take anything I've said too harshly, none of it is meant personally, and I'm not making any specific allegations about any individual's mindset. I just feel strongly that people should be tolerant and accepting and that in a game like this, an effort should be made to include as many people as possible.

eternal pho · Jun 09, 2006, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Kinda hard for an assassin not to be a tank, since they do melee attacks and you'd have go fight up front. So how can you be called a noob for attacking...

Nivryx · Jun 09, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40

towards the end of factions you start to see less profession discrimination. i was in a group today and heres what happened:
leader: 'GLF tank and assassin 6/8'
*assassin joins, a tank joins shortly after*
Tank: 'kick the assassin, get another tank'
Monk: 'I'll leave if you kick him'
Leader: 'alright, ill take half of your advice--ill get another tank'
*leader kicks tank*

apparently monk and assassin had just been in a group and the monk could vouch for how well he (the assassin) played. and indeed, he was a good assassin.